“I have to remember that I’m not the old me. The new me realizes that I have worth in the world. And Gramps sees that worth in me." --Topher
This is Part II of the interview with Gramps and Topher. If you haven't yet, go read Part I first.
Question: Gramps, why were you so passionate about Topher? What made you want to move heaven and hell to help him?
Gramps: Through my teen years up to age 16, I lived on the edge of suicide. I had the plans in place and every detail worked out and I could have executed the plan in an instant. For me, it wasn’t like I wanted to die, it was just that I wanted the suffering to stop and I didn’t have any other options that I could make out; neither was there any hope for improvement. Fast-forward to 2017, I am keenly aware that Mormon kids in Utah are killing themselves and the situation appears to be worsening in recent years. The fact that LGBT kids are at the heart of the suicide epidemic really had me amped up. This was the backdrop.
Being new to Reddit and discovering my new /r/exmormon family, and realizing for the first time in my life that I am not alone, I began dealing with my old exmo stuff. I started posting and letting go of some old hurts that had been festering. Topher responded to one of my posts and publicly apologized to me and all LGBTs for being a hateful anti-gay bigot in his prior life as a TBM. Even before that moment, I had already started to notice Topher’s posts. He was extremely articulate and his writing was always on the mark. It was clear he spent a considerable amount of time and effort on /r/exmormon thoughtfully encouraging others and helping them work through their issues. Topher was obviously a millennial and he bowled me over with his compassion and the level of maturity he exhibited.
That’s when I decided to take a closer look at Topher and his earlier posts that came before me. Holy fuck, Topher was going through some awful shit since having made his honest declaration of non-belief to his family. His parents were basically “tough loving” him by bitch-slapping him, kicking him in the balls and breaking a few ribs, together with non-stop shaming and guilting. Topher was severely depressed and drowning in a dark pool of hopelessness. He had been abandoned and betrayed by those he loved. But even with everything he was dealing with, Topher still managed to show daily compassion and extend his hand to fellow exmos. I knew Topher was amazing, and I also knew he needed help, so I put a hot-link to his /r/exmormon posts on my desktop where I could easily jump directly to and monitor his communications.
I reached out to him on a personal level and eventually volunteered to be his surrogate grandfather, if he would have me. Maybe I could help fill the gap that had been created when his family had tossed him in the trash. He cautiously agreed and I shared my private contact information with him; he didn’t reciprocate. In my mind, I couldn’t escape this feeling that my outreach to him had this creepy-old-man-stalker vibe to it; I understood his reservations and I realized it would take time to build trust. Fuck. Saving another Mormon life here--that was all I could think about--it was worth risking looking like I was some stalker.
Question: Topher, what made you trust Gramps? Why did you let him in?
Topher: To this day, I’m not entirely sure I have an answer for that. I mean, here’s some random guy, who I’ve never interacted with, that is so passionate about my situation that he’s offering to fly out here just to have a chance to help my brother navigate being gay and in the church. I guess that could raise some red flags for some people, but I didn’t feel any. Gramps says he was worried about coming off as a creepy old man, and he’s right that I didn’t reciprocate my personal contact information. But it wasn’t because I was leery of the situation. It was because I was still in the depths of depression. I didn’t want anyone to notice me. It would be easier to die and not have anyone hurt this way. I’m ~99% atheist and don’t believe in a hereafter, but I feel that humans can connect on a subconscious level. I don’t know how or why, but I immediately trusted Gramps.
After reading Gramps’ response to why he was so passionate to me, I’m tearing up. I tried so hard to hide my pain. Though I felt like I was free, I was bound by my old Mormon way of thinking. Bound tighter than I could imagine. I felt like I couldn’t help people unless I proved that I had no pain. That I had conquered the very thing that I was trying to help people conquer.
As far as the passion we feel for each other now, I think you’ll come to understand that we just have some sort of innate connection; one that is hard to put in words....
Question: After that night, describe for us your relationship development and how you got to where you are today.
Gramps: Did I message him the next day? Or did he? Numbness and anxiety prevent my total recall of those events. All I remember is that somehow, mid-way through the following day, there was contact… and the immediate flood of relief that came with knowing he was alive.
Topher: That’s about as much as I remember too. I spent the rest of the night on the mountainside. At some point the next day I remembered there were probably people worried about me. Not my family, of course, but people that would soon become my family...
Gramps: Soon after that night we switched from Reddit PM to SMS which of course means that Topher trusted me with his phone number. Cautiously and tentatively, we began to share with each other the details of our lives. We talked by phone and for the first time heard each other’s voice. We shared life experiences; we raged about TSCC. Together we navigated both the down times and the up times. We laughed; we cried. Text messages flew back and forth by the thousands (thank gob for unlimited plans). At some point I realized that Topher has become part of my psyche; never out of my mind for even five minutes. I’ll be reaching for my phone to text him and before I can pick it up, I’m receiving one from him. That’s how our days are. As the first light of morning breaches the mountain, Topher’s text tone sounds… “Hi there.” We share songs and playlists that speaks to our souls and our common suffering and joy. Our relationship is still new and developing, yet we’re communicating on a different level now… like we’ve known each other all our lives. Sometimes I know he’s having a bad patch; I can just feel it without him telling me. I’m reminded of a line from Sense8 which I can only quote loosely, but which describes so perfectly how it is with me: “I can feel his pain. It’s only bearable because the alternative is not.”
Topher: To this day, I’m not fully “cured” of my low self-esteem. More days than not, I feel like I’m a burden on Gramps. I feel like I should tell him thanks for what he’s done, but I’m not worth any further effort. But, I have to remember that I’m not the old me. The new me realizes that I have worth in the world. And Gramps sees that worth in me. I’ve never even seen Gramps in person, but I love him mightily. He knows me, can feel my mood. He’s absolutely right. Texts all day. Good times and bad times. So thanks, Gramps. You’ve changed my life in a way nobody has before. Words aren’t enough to describe this emotion I feel. So until we raise a glass together, a Delta sunset behind us, I love you Gramps.
Gramps: Now, Topher has a safe place to live where he isn’t constantly being abused and made to feel “lesser” by righteous Mormons. His self-confidence grows stronger each day. He excels at his job and has been rewarded with more than one promotion. We share and celebrate these achievements together. He is so brilliant and smart, so capable and compassionate, so funny and fun-loving. He has always been these things, but he lost his confidence along the way. He was told repeatedly by family and friends that he was a worthless apostate fuckup for leaving the church… and he started to believe it. He just needed someone to believe in him and tell him so and walk with him.
I came to /r/exmormon looking for answers after walking away from the church decades ago. What I found here exceeded my wildest expectations. I found a community of like-minded individuals that is understanding and supportive. I found exmormons who swear like sailors, talk openly about sex, and drink coffee, beer and wine. I found people who are allies to LGBTs and are not afraid to say so. I found people who understand me; people who feel my pain and know it personally. Peace has never seemed within reach, but here, it feels possible. And then I found Topher.
I can’t find the words to convey how much I love him. Sometimes I just shake my head in disbelief over the inability to comprehend the events of the last three months. I love him so much. I’m a fucking gay childless grandpa and I love my grandson so much! Want to hear another surprise? Topher gives to me and my life as much or more than I do to him. My heart is so full it’s just gonna BUST.
Topher: Well, I don’t know that I give as much to Gramps as he’s given me. He’s helped me become the master of my ship, so to say. Since he’s come into my life, I’ve been promoted three times at work, a third one in the near future. I’ve moved to a new, safer place to live. I’ve been steadily losing weight and becoming more loving of myself. Gramps credits this all to me being my awesome self. But I’d be so much less of a man, or dead on a mountainside, without him…
I write poetry sometimes. I think it’s kinda lame, but Gramps seems to like it. So, here’s a poem that I wrote about us.
"Lost and alone.
Drowning in my pain.
Searching for a home.
Cold, wet, in the pouring rain.
A lost little boy, yet full grown.
So angry, so hurt.
No words, just a moan...
I'd had enough,
It was time to go.
My heart so rough.
Wanted to die, quick or slow...
In my darkest hour,
There was a light!
It gave me a sense of power,
Just enough to sharpen my sight!
I thought about pushing you away...
But, you seemed here to stay?
I was so close to leaving this Earth.
But you, you gave me another birth...
Texts, calls, a little self worth?
I thought I was nothing,
But to you, I was something
I was strong, compassionate, loving and...and...
And I was so far away...
So far away, yet you held me near!
I thought, how could he love me?
I had so much darkness and fear...
Yet, you held me near"
So, that’s a brief glimpse into our saga. It’s a crazy one, that’s for damn sure. We’d like you guys to ask any questions you may have and we’ll try to answer as best we can.
Some fun facts:
My average number of texts per month have gone up from just under 1000 to right around 4500.
Gramps has the most adorable old gay man voice. Absolutely the best!
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